Deeyah Khan one of the most significant documentary filmmakers in the world. She’s also one of the great peacebuilders of our time. She shows us the humanity of even those with whom who think we have nothing in common, building bridges where we thought that none could be built. She shows us there’s another way

She has won two Emmys, a BAFTA, an RTS and two Peabody Awards in over a decade of making films that deal with such polarizing issues as extremism, violence against women, inequality, racism and social exclusion. The Times of London has called her “one of the bravest, most indomitable women... facing down bullies and extremists with intelligence and unflinching spirit”.

She has filmed with battle-hardened jihadis, members of armed militia groups, American domestic terrorists and white supremacists, with incisive, illuminating and often surprising results. After spending a number of months filming with members of the United States’ largest neo-Nazi organisation, including filming them on their notoriously violent march through Charlottesville in 2017, three high-ranking figures, including the leader, left the movement and rejected its white supremacist ideology. All of them credit their encounters with Deeyah as the catalyst for them to leave an extremist movement.

I think Deeyah’s wonderful, I feel honored to call her a friend, and I was glad to have the chance to talk to her for an extended interview. I hope you receive as much from listening to her as I do. Enjoy!

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Learn more about Deeyah’s Films

America’s Veterans: The War Within

Behind the Rage: America’s Domestic Violence

America’s War on Abortion

Muslim in Trump’s America

White Right: Meeting the Enemy

Banaz: A love Story

Jihad: A Story of the Others

Islam’s Non-Believers

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I knew some basics about Paine, including his pamphlet Common Sense and what a pivotal role it played in the American Revolution. Given current events I’ve had a heightened sense of Paine’s relevance to our situation in America today, and wanted to sit down with Harvey to hear more.

Of all Paine’s extraordinary quotes, this is my favorite:

These are the times that try men’s souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value. Heaven knows how to put a proper price upon its goods; it would be strange indeed if so celestial article as FREEDOM should not be highly rated.

— Common Sense

The spirits of many of our great historical figures are speaking to us now, with guidance that lights our paths today. More and more, it serves us to listen. Who would have thought that knowing history could be such a powerful tool?

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Harvey J Kaye is Professor Emeritus of Democracy and Justice at the University of Wisconsin-Green Bay and a member of the American Federation of Teachers. An award winning author and editor of 18 books — including THOMAS PAINE AND THE PROMISE OF AMERICA, THE FIGHT FOR THE FOUR FREEDOMS, and FDR ON DEMOCRACY — and he’s currently coauthoring a book with Alan Minsky of Progressive Democrats of America to be titled: SAVING DEMOCRACY: THE CASE FOR A 21C ECONOMIC BILL OF RIGHTS.

Thank you, Harvey!

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Well, that was then and this now.

Not only is a group of American tech multi-billionaires now plundering the U.S. economy, but they are doing so for more than economic purposes. More sinister is what they are really after: not just economic, but societal change. They’re committed to using their vast economic resources to essentially rewrite the American contract. They find democracy itself inconvenient to their long term economic goals, which is why they support Trump’s agenda to basically destroy American democracy and turn it into something else. It should be replaced, in their view, by a corporate authoritarianism that takes a sledgehammer to our Constitutional, rules-based order.

Of the people, by the people, for the people? Oh, silly you. How quaint that you believe in all that.

If you ever wonder who exactly this gang is comprised of - what they’re doing and what their goals are - then you’ll be interested in Jacob Silverman’s book, GILDED RAGE: Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley. It’s a fascinating and easy read, though at one point I honestly stopped for a moment and thought I might get sick. Certain books are essential reading for those seeking to understand what the hell is going on these days. I would consider this book one of them and I admire Silverman for writing it.

At times like this, reading a book can be a revolutionary act. We should always remember that information is power.

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Silverman is an independent journalist living in New York. He is the co-author of the New York Times best seller Easy Money: Cryptocurrency, Casino Capitalism, and the Golden Age of Fraud, and the author of Terms of Service: Social Media and the Price of Constant Connection. Gilded Rage: Elon Musk and the Radicalization of Silicon Valley is his latest book.

JacobSilverman.com

More about Gilded Rage: https://linktr.ee/gildedrage

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Jesus, of course, was neither oppressor nor hater nor promoter of theocracy. There are those who claim to speak for him at times, however, who are all of those things. One of the primary forces behind Project 2025 is a political movement called Christian Nationalism. Christian Nationalism speaks not of the teachings of Jesus - feeding the hungry, helping the poor, healing the sick, and kindness to the stranger. Their vision is not about love, but power - specifically a version of power that transgresses basic American Constitutional principles (subjugation of women, primacy of Christianity over other religions, and more).

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Progressive Christians are rising up in response, bringing into the theological as well as political spheres a message that is much needed at this time. Theirs is a Jesus of the Gospels, recognizing that loving one another is indeed the salvation of the world.

My guest in this interview is Brian Recker, author of HELL BENT: How the Fear of Hell Holds Christians Back from a Spirituality of Love. Recker, a former Evangelical pastor, is an influential figure in the Christian Deconstructionist Movement. He explains a journey taken by millions of Christians in America today. who feel strongly that a Jesus of love, not retribution, should guide our hearts.

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Website: BrianRecker.com
Substack: BrianRecker.Substack.com
Instagram: @berecker

My video today is a conversation with public theologian Brandan Robertson, in which he gives answers to many of the questions I’ve had about this movement. Who are they? What do they stand for? What is their connection to far right wing conservative politics? And what is their plan for America’s future?

A genuinely progressive Christianity, harkening back to the love of Jesus and its relevance to our individual as well as collective lives, is being powerfully articulated by such speakers as Robertson. Thankfully, progressive Christians are not quiet right now. Their numbers are growing, and they’re speaking up.

I hope you find the interview interesting. It’s critically important that we understand what’s going on.

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Rev. Brandan Robertson is a noted author, activist, and public theologian, dedicated to exploring the intersections of spirituality, sexuality, and social justice. He serves as the Pastor of Sunnyside Reformed Church in New York City and is the founder and Executive Director of The Devout Foundation. Known as the “TikTok Pastor,” Robertson’s inclusive theological content has garnered 10 million views. He has authored, contributed to, or edited 23 books, including the INDIES Book of the Year finalist True Inclusion. His work has been featured in TIME Magazine, CNN, and The Washington Post. Robertson is a sought-after speaker who regularly presents at prestigious platforms like The White House and Oxford University, continuing to inspire and challenge audiences around the world. Robertson acquired a Bachelor of Arts in Pastoral Ministry and Biblical Studies from Moody Bible Institute, an Master of Theological Study from Iliff School of Theology, and an Master of Arts in Political Science and Public Administration from Eastern Illinois University. He’s presently pursuing a PhD in Biblical Studies at Drew University. He currently resides in New York City.

Brandan’s latest book is Queer and Christian: Reclaiming the Bible, Our Faith and Our Place at the Table

Brandan’s Links

• Brandan’s Website

• Brandan’s TikTok:

• Brandan’s Facebook

• Brandan’s Instagram

• Brandan’s Twitter

• Brandan’s Substack

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In a properly functioning democracy, the U.S. government - as part of its mandate to protect the common good - would regulate corporate behavior to insure profits were never placed before the safety, health and well-being of people and planet. Yeah, well….that would be nice. Beginning in the 1980’s, our government began to promote corporate interests too often at the expense of our well-being. In area after area, corporate profits became America’s bottom line.

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More and more Americans realize this now. We need a world in which the safety, health and well-being of our children takes precedence over an economic trickle-down theory of economics. This is a fundamental way in which we’ve gone astray, and one of the ways in which in time we will self-correct.

My guest today is Bill Freese, science director at Center for Food Safety (CFS), a non-profit organization that supports sustainable agriculture and opposes harmful food production technologies.

Take care. Stay informed. We’re going to create a more beautiful world.

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You can find out more at:

General website: https://www.centerforfoodsafety.org/victories

https://www.thenewlede.org/2025/09/epa-has-failed-us-the-maha-commission-just-proved-it/

https://www.thenewlede.org/2024/04/an-herbicide-so-hazardous-that-courts-have-banned-it-twice/

https://www.thenewlede.org/2024/10/epa-not-protecting-public-from-neonic-exposure-analysis-suggests/

President Trump chooses to extend financial support for the Israeli effort. While Secretary of State Marco Rubio says “It’s their war,” many would argue that it is Israel’s war - and ours. My interview today is with Arab-American political advocate Raed Jarrar, who argues that without our help Netanyahu could not continue his military rampage.

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According to Jarrar, one phone call from Trump could stop this, and there are various theories as to why he’s not willing to do so. Whatever his reason, the war continues to be an unending source of pain and suffering or the Palestinian people. Despite protests all over the world - including 500,000 Israelis on the streets of Tel Aviv - the incursion into Gaza City only amps up a war in which there appears to be no endgame.

Israel is America’s ally, to be sure, but our highest alliance must be with humanity itself. In the Declaration of Independence, it says that “all men are created equal.” That does not mean just all Americans, or all of America’s friends. I believe God created us as One and loves us as One. Our job on earth is to learn to love as God loves.

I hope my conversation with Raed gives you much to consider. I look forward to hearing your thoughts.

Find out more about Raed here.

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You get the drift.

Ultimately the Anonymous author revealed himself to be Miles Taylor, a former chief of staff at the US. Department of Homeland Security. Having worked in the Bush administration as well, Taylor knew how things were supposed to work in the White House - and how they were not supposed to work. He followed up A Warning with another bestseller, Blowback, in which he described what would happen in a worst case scenario during a second Trump term.

Most of those things have already occurred.

In today’s interview, Taylor told me it’s now “time to engage in some radical thinking.” He said we need a massive movement of non-violent resistance unlike anything America has ever seen.

I’ve admired Taylor’s writing, his courage, and his continued call to the American people to wake up before it’s too late. If Paul Revere were alive today, he'd be called Miles Taylor.

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Find out more about him here:

MilesTaylor.Substack.com

End Presidential Revenge: The legal defense fund to end presidential revenge against Miles Taylor & others

BOOKS:

Blowback: A Warning to Save Democracy from Trump's Revenge

A Warning

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My interview today is with author and SiriusXM radio host John Fugelsang. John articulates a moving rebuttal to the Christian Nationalist message, emphasizing true Christian values such as service to the poor, healing the sick, and welcoming the stranger in our midst.

John’s new book, SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND HATE: A Sane Person's Guide to Taking Back the Bible from Fundamentalists, Fascists, and Flock-Fleecing Frauds, is a great primer in speaking up for what the New Testament really says.

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An organization he founded called RESULTS is a citizen lobby dedicated to creating the political will to end poverty and hunger. His work has literally saved people’s lives. He founded and now leads Civic Courage, providing all of us the opportunity to make a difference in the lives of people we will never even know.

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Sam’s book Reclaiming Our Democracy is a testament to what’s possible when citizens are engaged in the democratic process. Working through Civic Courage, Daley Harris and his volunteers have led successful efforts to block some of the draconian budget cuts in the Trump agenda, forming a bulwark against their cruelest effects.

He is an important leader for such a time as this.

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1. It’s here and it’s not going anyplace. The world will never be the same.

2. It’s extremely convenient to use at times, though people should realize that sometimes it lies.

3. The environmental damage it causes is huge.

4. In the hands of corporations like Palintir, it’s already being used for what could be government control and totalitarian purposes.

5. The conversation we’re having about it as a society is morally and ethically inadequate to the challenges it poses for the human race.

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   I asked Brian O’Kelley, co-founder of AppNexus and Scope3, to help us start to figure all this out. It’s not a conversation we should leave in the hands of those who’ve proven themselves careless about the fate of our democracy or our species.

   Also, Brian will join me for a zoom call with paid subscribers on Thursday night, 5pmPT and 8pm ET. We’ll be sending you the link! So think of your questions and lets have the conversation.

   This one literally affects us all.

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From deporting innocent citizens to criminalizing homelessness, America’s government today is breaking laws and normalizing cruelty. Tens of thousands of America’s unhoused population work part or even full time. Many have children. When homeless encampments are removed and people’s belongings trashed, how are those people to keep their jobs? How are the children to go to school? The level of trauma being inflicted on people is something beyond what any person of conscience should be willing to tolerate.

I asked Jesse Rabinowitz, Campaign and Communications Director at National Homelessness Law Center, to help explain what’s happening and what we can do about it. Please support a bill currently before Congress that would actually help solve the problem. Make calls. Spread the word. Make noise.

Cruelty is evil. We must not give in.

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No one need feel helpless in the face of Trump’s onslaught, because there’s a lot we can do. But We the People need to do it. Beto’s organization POWERED BY PEOPLE is doing exactly what needs to be done to help protect the midterms in Texas and elsewhere.

It doesn’t matter what state you live in or who you are: if they’re transgressing against liberty anywhere, they’re transgressing against you.

This isn’t a moment to take our feet off the gas…not even for a moment. We’re moved from “threat” to our democracy to full on on-going attack on our democracy. Generations not even born yet will register whether or not we show up for this moment of truth.

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Wake up. Rise up. And remember what my father used to say: “Don’t let the bastards get you down.”

I’ll gladly interview Congressional candidates who offer hope for real change in Washington. Today’s conversation is with J.D. Scholten of Iowa. J.D., now an Iowa State legislator, decided to jump into the race when he saw Senator Joni Ernst’s response to a constituent who complained that the Medicare cuts will cause people to die. She said, “Well, we all are going to die.” She then doubled down with a sarcastic apology that was pretty shocking even by today’s low standards. Wow.

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I hope you enjoy my talk with J.D. Washington will be a much better place if Scholten win this race, and I can give a personal endorsement that he’s a really, really, really good guy.

Here’s J.D’s website. If you enjoy the interview, I hope you’ll throw in some support.

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I did an interview you might enjoy. Relationships, sociopaths and spirituality are the topics covered in my conversation with author Arielle Ford about her latest book, “The Love Thief.”

The book is coming out this week, and if you find the interview compelling you can check it out at at www.thelovethief.com. It’s based on a true story and captures insights very relevant to the times in which we live.

Enjoy!

The train derailment and subsequent environmental disaster on February 3rd in East Palestine, Ohio, is the embodiment of a greedy economic perspective and the damage it creates. The railroad industry, like so many others, produces billions of dollars in profit for its stockholders. Yet those profits are often at the expense of the safety, health and well-being of its workers and many others, as a greedy obsession with cutting costs gets precedence over humane concerns.

The people of East Palestine and surrounding areas could be dealing with the after effects of this environmental disaster - one of the worst in U.S. history - for decades. The incident demonstrates the dire effects of putting short term corporate profit maximization before the well-being of people and the state of our world. This is an industry, remember, that only months ago fought tooth and nail to deny its workers sick pay.

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I asked Max Alvarez, editor of The Real News Network, to discuss with me what really happened in East Palestine; the workers who tried to warn executives at Norfolk Southern of the dangers posed by their antiquated brake system and merciless cost cutting - only to be rebuffed; and how, if we do not return to an era of appropriate regulation as a guardrail against corporate irresponsibility, the next disaster is just waiting to happen.

The greedy overreach of such companies as Norfolk Southern make clear the importance of today’s resurgent labor movement in the United States. All of us have a part to play in ending the tyranny of corporate domination. Let’s pray it won’t take any more disasters to make it happen.

The time for change is now.

Learn more about Max and The Real News Network
Follow Max on Twitter @maximillian_alv

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In April of 2022, a young man named Christian Smalls led a powerful unionization drive at the Amazon warehouse in Staten Island, New York. An 8,000 person work force was working under conditions that Smalls, and others, found unfair and unsafe particularly during the COVID pandemic.

Amazon spent over $4M to deter Smalls’ unionization efforts, which he funded with $120,000 raised on a Go Fund Me page. Yet as everyone now knows, Smalls’ David beat Amazon’s Goliath; the final vote was 2,654 yes votes, 2,131 no, with 68 challenges. While Amazon was left with more arrows in its quivers with which to beat unionization, the vote at JFK8 was a historic win with an indisputable emotional and psychological effect on labor activists around the country. 

 Was Amazon’s material power enormous compared to that of Smalls and his friends? Oh yes. Was it almost ridiculous to think that Smalls - particularly with so few resources compared to Amazon’s - would be able to rally enough support for his efforts? Absolutely. So what happened there? What was it about Smalls - about his commitment and his perseverance and dedication to his cause - that despite the forces arrayed against him enabled him to work a miracle?

 Speaking on the New York Times Daily podcast, Smalls referred to the process as “spiritual.” He said the effort was built on “love and caring for one another.” Amazon spent millions of dollars on anti-union consultants; Smalls put up a folding table on public property near the bus stop outside the warehouse, talking to Amazon workers as they got off and on the bus day after day, night after night. He talked to workers, he listened to their stories, he helped where he could, he built a community of sorts. They all sang together, he said, and even prayed together. In the end, the power of connection, community, human sharing and understanding, overcame Amazon’s gargantuan material power.

Many have referred to Smalls as the David to Amazon’s Goliath. And there was far more to the Biblical David and Goliath than simply their difference in size. First of all, David wasn’t even a warrior; he was a shepherd delivering food. He knew nothing about fighting. But his heart was touched by the pain and fear of his brothers, and it was that which inspired him to volunteer to take on the giant. He was bound to win … because the giant had no soul.

Smalls, like David before him, was going to hit Goliath in the one place where it has no defense: its lack of conscience. With his slingshot David hit Goliath at the midpoint of the giant’s forehead, a point referred to metaphysically as the Third Eye. If you have a conscience and the opponent doesn’t, then ultimately you will win.

A soulless neoliberal economic order, devoid of ethics and human compassion, will have no power once confronted by a politics of love, of radical humanitarianism. The way Smalls discussed his union drive made me think he understands that.

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Amazon didn’t know what hit them.

Most experts in the field of union organizing would have doubted Smalls’ effort, and the executives at Amazon certainly did. Amazon’s general counsel made the mistake of emailing a thousand people to describe Smalls as “not smart and not articulate,” a line that will go down in history as the famous last words of a dinosaur system. They became a rallying cry not only for Smalls but for thousands of people who could relate to the experience of their legitimate calls for justice going unheard, their needs being dismissed, and their very way of speaking being derided.

The Amazon executive said he hoped the press would focus on Smalls as a kind of mascot for the unionization effort, as he felt it would be good for the company on the public relations front. If ever there was a “watch what you wish for” moment, that was it.

Smalls didn’t try to look or sound like a union leader is “supposed” to look or sound. Nor did he look to professional organizers to build his union. He knew the experts had failed in their effort to unionize the Amazon warehouse in Bessemer, Alabama; only Smalls knew the workers themselves and what they were going through on Staten Island. He’s unabashedly of a new generation of labor leadership that is going to do things their way.

We can’t beat the old system with the tools of the old system, for the old system is loveless. If we put our lovelessness up against its lovelessness - and it has more money or power of brute force than we do - then we will lose. It is only when we claim the power of deep human connection, of the authentically human, that we can invoke nonviolent revolution. Call it solidarity, call it community, call it brotherhood or call it love - whatever you call it, it’s the key to transforming the world.

Interestingly enough, it was the American labor union advocate Nicholas Klein (not Gandhi, to whom the words have often been misattributed), who in 1918 said, “First they ignore you. Then they ridicule you. And then they attack you and want to burn you. And then they build monuments to you.” The quote was become popularized as “First they ignore you, then they laugh at you, then they fight you, and then you win.” 

 Whichever way we say it, the point is that it’s true. There will definitely be monuments to Christian Smalls one day. He brought a deep human dimension to a field that had grown dry and sclerotic, like bringing a withered flower back to life. He, more than any other individual, has made labor organizing a thing again. He did something that so needed to be done, and now thousands upon thousands more will have the courage to do it too.

I admire him greatly, and I hope you enjoy our conversation...

(The episode can also be found on Spotify and Apple Podcasts)

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Marianne Williamson:

Hi everybody, Marianne Williamson here, thank you so much for being with me. This is an exciting interview for me. It's something I've been wanting to do. It has been scheduled and rescheduled. I could do it, but then he couldn't do it. He could do it, but then I couldn't do it. And finally today was the big day I got to interview labor organizer Chris Smalls.

Christian Smalls is someone who has already made history in his young life. He has actually led a successful union drive at Amazon.

Amazon as we know is a huge corporate behemoth, and it is one of these huge corporate entities that has done everything in its power to keep unions out of its shop. Now, you might say, as I think any reasonable person would say, with the billions of dollars that Amazon makes - the billions of dollars in profit that accrue not only to its stockholders but also to the big man himself, Jeff Bezos - why would they not want to give workers all the safety benefits? All the health benefits, all the things that will just enable those workers to have a dignified life, to make a living wage and to be able to work with some happiness and some productivity and creativity that feels natural to them on a daily basis?

Well, as you probably know, that is not the way Amazon has seen it. So Christian Smalls is the man who did what they said could not be done. He successfully unionized the Staten Island, New York warehouse, JFK8 in April of this year. Nobody would've thought that he could do it. It began when he was working at Amazon and he was upset by the lack of safety measures that were being taken at the beginning of the pandemic, when COVID was particularly dangerous. The company was not taking the measures that they needed to be taking to ensure the safety of its workers.

He was just blown off. Then when he tried to stage a walk out, they fired him illegally and Amazon spent over $4 million on labor busting activities. They brought in the big guns. They brought in the so-called experts. Christian Smalls, and the gentleman who was his partner in this effort, Derrick Palmer, they raised $120,000 on a GoFundMe page. They did what they said could not be done.

They built community. They built solidarity. They took a folding table, folding chairs, set them up outside the bus stop where workers came and went every day. They had food, they sang, they famously smoked weed and they talked and they prayed together. And they explained to people why it was to their benefit (to form a union). Now, even as we speak, Amazon is contesting the election saying it needs to be held again, complaining that the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Board was unfair in its help that it gave to the union.

They're saying all the things you would expect them to be saying right now, but Christian Smalls has already made history. Christian Smalls has already enlivened single handedly, practically, the labor movement in this country along with incredible people like Sarah Nelson, so many others as well. There are thousands of people and more who have been involved in the larger effort. Now look at what's going on at Starbucks, what's going on at Walmart.

What's starting to go on at Apple, Google, this is now a fire that has been lit. Labor is coming back and it's coming back in large part because of this one young man, Christian Smalls. I hope you enjoy our interview.

Marianne Williamson:

Chris Smalls, thank you so much for being with me. I'm really grateful, and I have really looked forward to speaking with you.

Christian Smalls:

Thank you. Thank you for having me.

Marianne Williamson:

You are very much man of the season. You've already made a historic difference, not only in the labor movement, but in our contemporary relationship with capitalism itself. People will be talking about you decades and longer from now. My interest in you, what I've thought about so much is why you? And so I'd like to discuss that with you today if you don't mind going over some of those details with me. You had been working at Amazon and you had a problem with the fact that you felt that they were not taking care of the health and safety of its workers in a way that was appropriate during COVID. Is that correct?

Christian Smalls:

Yes, absolutely.

Marianne Williamson:

Okay. So when you first went and complained about that, what kind of response did you get?

Christian Smalls:

It pretty much was just negative. It was nothing that was really a solution to what we were asking for. It was just nonchalant, business as usual, not really worried about our concerns. We needed PPE, we needed some guidance on to how to socially distance. It was nothing. It was just very vague. It wasn't really reaching anybody on the shop floor and I just couldn't stand with it.

Marianne Williamson:

So when you went and made that complaint, were you alone in the office with the HR person or were other people with you?

Christian Smalls:

At certain points, other people were with me, but initially, no. I went by myself and then I brought larger groups days following especially after my colleague tested positive, I started to organize workers in the break room.

Marianne Williamson:

So we all have to remember, this is at the height of the COVID pandemic? This is when this was a very serious situation, people were getting sick. What I'm curious about is your perseverance. What I'm curious about is the fact that they did not stop you.

Now, if it had not been you, what would've happened for most people who were at Amazon at that time? They go, they complain to HR, HR just brushes off their complaints, and then what happens? Did people just figure there's nothing we can do?

Christian Smalls:

It would've been a lot more people deceased had I not did what I did. People would have lost their lives had I not did what I did. Amazon was forced publicly to provide the PPE and they made sure that week after I was fired, that they dropped all packages right to JFK8. And unfortunately, people still died that I've known that worked there.

Marianne Williamson:

So you're angry at that point, you feel the sense of injustice and you keep going. You don't let it go. You stage a walk out. At that point, Amazon starts realizing we might have a problem on our hands, but we don't really have a problem on our hands because Chris Smalls is "Not smart, not articulate." When you first do stage a walk out though, they fire you, right?

Christian Smalls:

Yes, two hours after the walk out on the same day they fired me.

Marianne Williamson:

What is it about you? What was going on inside you at that point that you said, "I'm not stopping." What was happening inside you? Who was talking to you? Was it friends? Was it family? Because not everybody would've persevered the way that you did. What was going on inside?

Christian Smalls:

Well, yeah. At the time, I was devastated by obviously losing my main source of income. So of course, I had to talk to my relatives, my mother.

Marianne Williamson:

I knew you were going to say your mother.

Christian Smalls:

Yeah.

Marianne Williamson:

I knew it. I knew it. All right. Tell me, what did your mother tell you, Chris?

Christian Smalls:

Well she always told me no weapon formed against me shall prosper. And she just motivated me to continue fighting for what's right. And I spoke to out of nowhere, Reverend Jesse Jackson called me, so I spoke to him. He really uplifted me, he gave me some legal counsel. And from that moment, I just continued to embrace whatever was thrown at me.

Marianne Williamson:

Right. So when you went down to Bessemer, Alabama, and you offered to be of service to their unionization efforts down there. That effort was being led by the people who supposedly know how to do all this. And they shoved you aside too. What did you know? You were just a worker, right? That would've also felt insulting and defeating.

Christian Smalls:

Yeah, it was definitely disheartening that I wasn't along with the people I went with who are actually Amazon workers that we didn't really have a connection with the union down there to really help them the first time around, which I saw we wanted to do originally. But we learned from their mistakes, we learned from the opportunities that we saw and we tried it our own way. And we don't regret the decision that we made. I felt that you're going to make decisions based on the workers in the warehouse, then who better than the workers in the warehouse.

Marianne Williamson:

I heard you say, actually, in talking about the community that you built. You got your folding chairs and your folding table, and you just set yourself up at the bus stop. You would bring food. Sometimes you would bring food that was more familiar to some of the immigrants who were the workers there, you would sing songs. You said you would pray together. You famously smoked weed together which Amazon is trying to use against you. Everybody else is saying, "Well, that was smart."

Explain not only the community building that you did, but I want to go back a little bit to this David and Goliath issue as I'm sure you know because I'm sure your mother taught you well. King Saul took off his coat of armor and said to David, "If you're going to do this, the least I can do is give you my coat of armor." He put on Saul's coat of armor and gave it back, said, "If I'm going to do this, I have to do it my way." You pierced this incredible wall of power represented by Amazon, huge corporate power. You pierced that wall and you pierced it through the level of community building that you did. Am I correct?

Christian Smalls:

That's absolutely correct. Yeah, we wanted to do it our way. We really didn't even have to reject help because we didn't get any. So to know that we did it our way and to really be successful, there's no greater feeling. And to have it worker led through and through, the workers understand the power now. And that was the only way and the best way that could have been done, to have them do it themselves.

Christian Smalls:

And to me to be this outside, presence at the bus stop, knowing the ins and out of the company, we definitely wouldn't take it back. This was the way to do it, and we're just happy to share this experience with the world.

So originally, we were approached by some unions that wanted to affiliate which means that obviously, we had to start over our campaign. So that was a no go, and then the rest were very vague type of help or if any, we didn't get it. So we didn't ask and vice versa. Yeah.

Marianne Williamson:

So you have already made history. You've already demonstrated what's possible. You've already started the reemergence of labor in a way that we have not seen in decades in this country whether it has to do with people at Starbucks, people at Apple all over the country now, there is this burning fire. First of all, I want to ask you about the efforts going on right now. You do feel that the NLRB, National Labor Relations Board, you do feel that they have served you well and that they have been fair and helpful, correct?

Christian Smalls:

Well, they've done what they can do. It's still a ways to go. Their laws are obviously outdated. They're way understaffed, they're way underfunded. So it really is a question is did the administration allow this NLRB to help us out? And the answer to that is they have some work to do. We want the PRO Act to be passed. We want some of these remedies to be quicker.

It shouldn't take two years for somebody to get fired and get their job back. Companies shouldn't be able to control and dictate certain things that they are able to do now. And we're dealing with that as we pretty much progressed through our campaign. We're learning that there's still some things that need to be worked out when it comes to these labor laws in this country.

Marianne Williamson:

Well, right now, Amazon even as we speak is trying to get the election overthrown. What are the other things to which you're referring? Where you feel the administration could be giving you and by extension the entire labor movement right now greater support in its efforts?

Christian Smalls:

Well, number one, they definitely shouldn't be given $10 billion to Amazon which they are. That doesn't make any sense, and then these are taxpayer dollars. The public needs to be outraged as well. Not just the workers, it's not just up to the ALU and the workers to take on all of the responsibility for holding this company accountable. Biden should be using that executive order pin. There's something that he can do right now to help workers out immediately.

Marianne Williamson:

I want to make sure that nobody misses out on this. First of all, that 10 billion, right?

Christian Smalls:

Yep.

Marianne Williamson:

(Biden) had said at the beginning of his presidency that he would not be giving any government contracts to companies that were actively opposing unions, but that's an example of his doing exactly what he said he would not do. What are the other things that he could do by executive order right now to be of greater support to unions?

Christian Smalls:

Well, definitely signing an executive order if the PRO Act is not going to pass, there's certain things that they can take and get into order right now. Also, just allocating some more money towards the NLRB on a national level. We need to staff these offices so that they can take on the amount of cases and inquiries that are coming from workers. They can't even really keep up.

Marianne Williamson:

Yes. That's what I heard from union organizers at Starbucks when I asked about the NLRB. They said, "Yeah, they're trying." But they're understaffed. We have this idea of this huge government agency, but it's actually just a much smaller office than you would think, and that it should be. Okay. So we know the success that you have been. We know that regardless what they do now, regardless of even if they overthrow the election, you've already pierced the wall.

You have already inspired the imagination. You have already given hope to thousands, if not millions of workers out in America to think, "Well yeah, maybe I could start a union. People who know that they can get online and see how it's done." I want to throw another compliment at you if I may. When this all happened, I was really looking as I'm sure many people were really looking closely at you because all of a sudden, you were all over the media and you did not waver. The kind of seduction techniques that the system uses to pull people over. Just please know that your demonstration of the solidity of your convictions, your unwillingness to waver, please know what a difference it has made to so many of us who are looking very carefully at what's going on.

Christian Smalls:

Well yeah, just thank you again for that compliment as well. Right now, the labor movement definitely is reaching different platforms that we haven't seen. It's unprecedented at these times. And I know I'm a big part of that going on different platforms, talking about labor, that's something that's necessary. And I see that the labor movement right now needs to be led by the younger generation.

There's no other way around it. The older established unions are starting to see the resurgence of this type of revolution, the Starbucks workers, the Apple, Google, Amazon, you name it. Even Walmart, Dollars General, Target, they reached out to me. So it's just a beautiful thing to see really.

Marianne Williamson:

So what I hear you saying is that you recognize that your leadership role is not just in regard to what happens at Amazon, but that your leadership role along with people such as Sarah Nelson and others has to do with the larger picture of the reemergence of labor at this time.

I know you had a friend, Derrick Palmer I believe.

Christian Smalls:

Yes.

Marianne Williamson:

Who really he joined with you, and I think that was a big deal. Having even one person who really believes in an effort, but in terms of the overall workforce at Amazon, was it a slow slog trying to convince people that this was possible? Trying to convince people it was a good idea? Did people seem too defeated to think it was possible?

Christian Smalls:

Yes. We definitely had to spend a large portion in the beginning of our campaign just educating people on what a union is. At first of course, there's so many questions. There was several conversations to be held, and it took some people two to three months to come on board, even some members of our core leadership with the ALU. Some of them didn't come until well after our first petition was even filed.

So it took people time. It took people coming back to the bus stop, talking to me directly. There's been a lot of that throughout the course of the campaign, and just Derrick present along with the other leaders inside the building every single day advocating even though the company was union busting so hard. Just having that militancy in the building showed the workers that when we come together, there's nothing that could stop us.

Marianne Williamson:

What were the fears that people had about joining a union?

Christian Smalls:

Well, it's always about the money. Amazon always tried to make it about the union dues. They know that these workers barely make enough as it is which is sad because they work for them and they can pay them more, but they know that these workers are living check to check. So of course, to threaten somebody else, a third party which they tried to refer to us as coming in to take union dues, that's going to put fear in anybody's mind who thinks that we're coming to take their money and to make me rich, or to make me a millionaire. They even told the workers at one point that I'm going to take the union dues and go buy a Lamborghini. It was just making up just silly things every single week, and we had to combat that.

Marianne Williamson:

Then of course, the over $4 million that Amazon spent was on professional union busters. So these techniques are very tried and true for them. And if we will continue to just talk to people. Now, in the current effort that Amazon is making to overturn the election, are you hopeful about that that this will be okay and that they will not be able to do that?

Christian Smalls:

Very hopeful. We know, and I know that we followed the rules through and through. We didn't cheat, we beat them fair and square. Even if you can say fair and square, we're talking about workers beating a trillion dollar company and they're crying wolf. That's just what it is. They're mad that they lost and they're going to spend every dollar to try to overturn it, but there's nothing there. They're just dragging this out. From what I understand, I can't even tune in because we are removed from it. We just hope that the NLRB and we have a good set of lawyers that are fighting for us. We hope that the decision goes our way.

Marianne Williamson:

Jeff Bezos has so many billions of dollars. He's one of the richest men in the world. Amazon has profits of so many billions and all we're talking about is creating a situation where the workers for a company can have a living wage, dignity, reasonable benefits so that they can live a quality life. How does that just make you feel on a personal level that this corporate giant who has so many billions of dollars is working so hard to block you? Where are you in your heart about that?

Christian Smalls:

Yeah, it really just makes no sense how much greed somebody can have in a lifetime. Just thinking about the fact that one million of these dollars, one million can pay everybody $30 an hour.

So it's just disheartening to hear it when you put in that perspective, but it also just continues to motivate us what we're fighting for and we're not going to give up no matter what they do, no matter how much union busting money they spend. The workers are past that point of return. There's no going back to what we saw and what we were getting pre-COVID. This is the turning point, and I think workers know their value now.

Marianne Williamson:

In this latest more modern era, the suppression of the union and the demonization of unions has been so strong for the last few decades. You have clearly made a dent in that in terms of the consciousness of the workers. What about just America in general? Do you think America's waking up just as a country to the recognition that the labor movement is an important antidote to overreach by capitalism?

Christian Smalls:

I really believe that the tides are definitely turning. Once again, labor is booming and up from I think it's believe 57% of unionizing elections this past year. So yeah, there's definitely something brewing here in the country nationwide. I've been traveling the country, I'm called the Hot Labor Summer Tour. I've been traveling ever since we won. I'm continuing to do so to spread awareness, spread our message and to really inspire people that want to unionize and no matter what industry you're in.

So yeah, I think the conversation is starting to move. We just have to continue once again, keep our foot on the gas. We can't let up. We can't rely on the politicians. We can't rely on the corporations. Damn sure can't rely on our bosses to give us what we want. We have to go get it.

Marianne Williamson:

Is there anything else that you want people to know? That you want people to remember?

Christian Smalls:

I just want people to know and take note of what they witness. We're just ordinary people that came together. As I speak right now, I am an unemployed worker no matter if you're employed or not, you're still a worker and we're all a part of the same struggle. When we come together, we can defeat companies like Amazon. We can defeat companies like Walmart. It's just up to us to really come together and build off a commonality.

I already said it to Lindsey Graham, it's not a left or right thing. It's the worker thing, and we've got to come together as people and really take on and fight back for what we rightfully deserve.

Marianne Williamson:

When you were speaking at a congressional hearing to Lindsey Graham, the one you just mentioned that of course was televised. I felt that something in him heard you and knew that you were speaking truth. Did you feel that way?

Christian Smalls:

At the moment, no, of course not, but I obviously watched the tapes and seen that that moment took off on the internet, I said, "Okay, maybe he did listen to me. Maybe not, but just to have workers speaking in the court hearing, that felt good." Workers need to hear that, people need to hear that message, and I'm glad that it resonated.

Marianne Williamson:

Well, you're making a very important point right there. It really doesn't matter whether or not Lindsey Graham heard you. What matters is that America heard you. And once again, the way you spoke to him, much like the way you spoke to Tucker Carlson, you do not waver from what you know to be the moral truth and integrity of your words. And it really obviously does not matter to you who buys it because you're talking to the larger audience of who's listening. God bless you. I think you're incredible, and if there's any way that I could possibly contribute to what you were doing, please call on me anytime. I'm one of your biggest fans.

Christian Smalls:

No, I know already, and I appreciate everything you've done for me already, and your support as well, very much needed in this fight. And yeah, just speaking about David and Goliath, the shirt that I'm wearing is actually David and Goliath. Somebody designed it.

Marianne Williamson:

Absolutely. He hit him in the third eye. He hit him in conscience, that's the one place where, and this is a very important spiritual truth about the story of David and Goliath. The one place where the giant was undefended was in the seat of the soul. And that is what you do, you speak right into conscience. You speak right into the hearts knowing that's how you made the movement happen.

Marianne Williamson:

I'm not surprised to hear that your mother had something to do with that. I have heard the little things that you've said about how the movement itself was spiritual, about how you prayed that morning. A lot of people have heard and have listened and you have definitely demonstrated the power of David to speak to the seat of the soul, and I think that you've only just begun. You've already made history and I hope you make a lot more of it. God bless you, sir.

Christian Smalls:

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

Marianne Williamson:

Thank you. Thank you so much.

Okay, that was my interview with Christian Smalls. I hope that you enjoyed it as much as I did. Christian Smalls has made history and now, the rest of us have to find it in our hearts to do that which they say cannot be done. If you are working in a company or in an industry where you feel that there needs to be a union and there's not, I hope that you will go online, that you will find all the ways that you too could start a union drive among the people that you work with.

This is a movement that having begun in the way it has now, this reemergence of labor - the fire has started and it's not going to stop. So if this is meant for you, I hope you'll take action. In the meantime, thank you for being with me. If you're enjoying the podcast, please subscribe, rate, and review on Apple podcast, check us out at YouTube. And remember, we all have an inner Christian Smalls. All my best to you. I'll see you next time.

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