We are using the people of Ukraine as pawns and they are suffering because of this proxy war which we can and should stop now. It's that simple. We are moving towards world War for military industrial complex and if course energy companies. The Ukrainian leaders are as corrupt as the Russians. We can't wait for them to decide when the war ends, nor can we afford to bankrupt our country for this senseless battle.
Look at the way the people of Ukraine are fighting this war. They’re fighting for the survival of their country, they are not fighting that way for the US state. In the name concern for them, it seems to me you are according them no agency of their own
The unnecessary & reckless provocations of the NATO West and, primordially, the US military-industrial-political complex on the longstanding Russia-Ukraine matter have led to this current predicament.
The US should — by all means — extend unlimited humanitarian assistance to those on the ground caught up in this senseless conflict; the absolutely real suffering & devastation is a direct consequence of its own evildoing, as much as it is Putin’s and Zelenskyy’s.
But to oblige or indulge the shameless propaganda for more military support — unless this support is to take precisely & exclusively the form of these very culpable provocateurs & propagandists deploying their very own selves to the front lines of this conflict — is to effectively offer sanction & assent to the perpetual, endless, forever wars that are this failing empire’s futile efforts at maintaining its last grips on its eroding dominance on the world stage.
Ukraine today; Taiwan tomorrow — where & when will it end?
for you this is a senseless conflict. for putin and those who know russian history this is not senseless at all. this is just more of what the russian empire has been doing for centuries. and putin very openly declared he wants to continue the russian world (empire). ukraine in their system is meant to be a colony. ukraine never existed and putin means to make sure it never does exist. you see empire mentality in the US but refuse to see the obvious in russia. of course to you ukraine's existence doesn't matter. but to ukrainians strangely enough it matters a lot. too subtle for many americans
Thank you for stating what should be obvious to anyone with a brain. Unfortunately most people here wholly support imperialism the moment it doesn’t come from the United States or Europe but an authoritarian regime. They are incapable of recognizing Ukrainian sovereignty since it doesn’t comply with Russian propaganda.
Marianne, with respect, you can see from our own and other countries’ histories that, With the tools of government and media (especially in a country that has banned the opposition parties and consolidated media under the government) it is not that hard to persuade a people to fight a war. Especially, of course, when invaded. Is it a matter of according them no agency, or of refusing to assume that they do not know how hard the United States worked to provoke Russia to invade?
Personally, at this point, I do wonder how many more Ukrainians want to see more loved ones killed and maimed, children traumatized, and their infrastructure destroyed, in order to ensure that Ukrainian oligarchs, not Russian ones, rule their eastern provinces.
But how many Ukrainians have fled their homeland? Whose left to fight but hired help! Sadly, lots of mercenaries on both sides getting higher paychecks than sovereign soldiers. History will, hopefully, show who was truly involved in this nightmare drama from several perspectives.
I agree that we seem to have endless money to send Ukraine (in addition to having rallied global support for Ukraine) while the basic needs of millions of Americans for food, housing, healthcare, education, etc. go unmet.
yes, the people of ukraine are pawns, only the US and russia have agency. is that your position? that is certainly putin's position when he is not saying that ukrainians are evil nazis. it is very disappointing that some on the left think that the only evil on this planet is the US. they see the destruction that putin is perpetrating and still blame the US for it. amazing brain gymnastics
If we are talking about agency of the Ukrainian people & the goodness/evilness of the US, then let’s not overlook the overthrow of a Ukrainian government democratically elected by the Ukrainian people, whose removal was facilitated & enabled by the US government to install its own preferred puppet/proxy regime in Kyiv.
If it wasn’t for the US-backed coup/revolution/“whatever” that overthrew a government democratically elected by the people of Ukraine, neither we nor the Ukrainians nor the Russians would be in the predicament we find ourselves today; in light of that FACT, why should we continue to heed the propaganda of these very same Western oligarchs (your words) about how we ought to resolve the present conflict?
lance, ukrainians think that they got rid of a government that promised them a turn toward the EU and that government instead got into a closer relationship with russia that the people did not want. so the ukrainian people got rid of this government that they once voted for (how clean that election was is not clear by the way, although you would rather turn somersaults than question the honesty of that election.)
It wasn’t a freaking coup, and if you had anything in your head besides Kremlin talking points, you’d know more about the revolution that started in 2013. Go to Ukraine and find out the truth.
Putin/Russia have been in Ukraine since 2014! Obama explicitly warned against the folly of intervening & sat out doing so through the end of his administration; Trump took virtually the same position and had his entire campaign & subsequent presidency sabotaged by the Russiagate hoax perpetrated by the mainstream media and their overlords in the military-industrial-political complex. It is unmistakable how quickly the Ukraine conflict escalated & how closely that escalation correlated with those obstinate figures falling out of the picture.
The US is not the only evil on the planet — I’ll give you that — but it ranks roundly as among its chief evildoers, up to & including on the Russia-Ukraine matter, in its gamesmanship, subterfuge, and backchannel maneuverings in the global geopolitical realm, deploying Ukraine as pawn & proxy to its imperial designs to advance the rapacious interests & aims of American power & capital.
You’ve been bent over so far backwards by the US establishment narrative you fail to comprehend the mental gymnastics under which your own brain is all tied up in knots.
I'm pretty sure that you, yourself, no sweet FA about Mr Putin. Your emotional reactions in comments here are as shallow as a birdbath. Do you live in The Ukraine, or are you and Outrage Junkie from America ?
First, I have experience & knowledge of Russia & Ukraine (and other former republics) that goes back 40 years. My undergrad degree was in East European Studies, and I initially was dealing with the USSR. I combined my interest in horses & history by importing them from Russia, Ukraine & Latvia.
Over the years I made many friends and kept current on political developments.
I’ve spent a lot of time in both countries, so of course my responses are emotional when I see how thoroughly Kremlin propaganda has pervaded the conversation. Vladimir Putin wasn’t anywhere on my radar when I started, but the 2nd invasion of Ukraine has changed the landscape so much more than any previous actions, which I’ve already mentioned in other comments on this page.
You say my reactions are shallow because you’re either a stooge of the current Russian imperialist regime or you’re just spewing their talking points out of your hollow desire for relevance.
I don’t have a blog or substack. I do have scholarship and personal experience.
I really don’t give a shit about what you think of me. What I object to is massive ignorance of the figures who are presented here as authorities on Russia or Ukraine when all they do is parrot lies from the Kremlin which I’ve been seeing on Russian state TV for years.
I was in Ukraine in 2013 and am very familiar with the discontent of Ukrainians who, for the first time, decided they wanted to deal more with the EU than Russia but ultimately Russia wouldn’t allow the independence. This has been twisted into fiction of a US-backed “coup” rather than the revolution that it was.
Blaming NATO for the current Russian occupation is perhaps the most frustrating talking point because it ignores many factors. One being how desperately ex-USSR nations wanted to be members of the EU for trade and other reasons and NATO to protect themselves from an acquisitive Russian state. Another being the horrifying methods used by the Russian military first seen in the Chechen genocide and carried out in Georgia and Ukraine. Nothing excuses what is committed under the imperialist regime of Vladimir Putin (I will never call him Vladimir Vladimirovich).
There are so many lies about Crimea and Donetsk and Luhansk that there’s no way I can’t get upset when I see them on a site for my only possible candidate this presidential cycle. If you don’t understand that, you’re not human.
I wish I could agree because I support Marianne - but when does it end? You cannot simultaneously prepare for war and prevent it. It must end now. Love you but &pummm no more weapons
No more weapons, you say. But you think that stops the war? It just means the entire world will watch a nation and its people crushed in the most brutal and horrific way. There is nothing “pro-peace” about that.
I don’t deny that that happened. And so far they are not sending f-16s, just training. I do not disagree about things that happened before. The issue for me is determining what needs to be done now.
Marianne, I’ve been supporting you from the day you announced. I have 40 years of experience in Russia & Ukraine (& other republics) and I can almost hear Putin think. Ukraine is willing to fight but need air superiority. If Russia is not soundly defeated as Germany was in WWII, bloodshed will resume as soon as they have rebuilt their reserves.
Sorry about the violence it will require, but it pales in comparison to what Russia will do in the coming years to the next bordering countries. Once they occupy any area, they will use the resources to wage war on the next victim. This isn’t a secret to the Ukrainians or the Baltics. Their intelligence is now becoming public, and it’s openly acknowledged on Russian media every night.
ahhhh ... there you are, establishing cred.... so, a forty-year veteran of Russian imperialist evildoing, eh? Living in the actual area, or reading magazines on the sofa? Is the situation completely the fault of the mad Russian, Samantha... are there any mitigating circumstances ? does any other country (I have a list) share ANY of the guilt for this disaster? Anyone at all.... or is it ENTIRELY the fault of the mad dictator in The Kremlin. Come on, show us your ideological obesssion, please...
I was sure you were aware. We’ve got to get you on the debate stage!!! The winner of the 2024 election will probably be my last president. I really, really want it to be you!❤️
We should have believed Putin when he told us in early 2022 exactly what he was about to do. That is when we should have done everything possible to prevent it.
I'm not sure what we would have done that wouldn't have been some form of appeasement. But sometimes that is the proper course of action when you are unsure of what side to support or are unable and unwilling to enter the arena yourself (NATO/US in this case), or simply want to buy time.
Why are you in this discourse if you think Marianne is naive? She’s walking a precarious line, a LIFELINE, the best we could possibly hope for. Because I have concerns/disagreements on this particular issue, does not negate the fact that the other 99.9% of her policy platform (the most substantial, detailed platform I’ve seen) is 💯 what we are desperate for. Wake up! We’re circling the drain and Marianne is Eloise. (I’m a boomer. You may not get the reference.)
Mario, thanks! I thought that may have been your intent, and I agree with it. I have misgivings on even how and why Zelensky seized power as president. There's still so much we don't know about the country that's been known as wildly corrupt in governance, economics, etc. that hasn't been helpful for the ordinary, every day Ukrainian. Let's hope things get better for them!
zelensky "seized" power by being elected. but if one is biased enough then what ukrainians do will always be suspect. even seeing putin's daily atrocities some walk by not noticing and look to solve the mystery of how zelensky "seized" power
I have 40 years of experience in both countries as I first visited during the days of the USSR. My avatar even has one of my imported horses from Ryazan.
Anyway, Ukraine has made immense progress shaking off old Soviet-style corruption with two major changes in 2005 & 2014 and continues to clean up each week.
Zelenskyy wasn’t taken seriously until he became so public and has been instrumental in improving leadership and procuring or at least making public what Ukraine needs to actually win this war.
Meanwhile I’ve had to help several friends with visas so they could leave Russia due to its growing intolerance and absolute brutality. Unfortunately many are unable to leave due to funds or having family who would suffer. I myself can no longer travel there safely and can only help my friends in Ukraine with whatever they cannot get when they are IDPs.
Sorry to say, if you continue to support the war, I will have to stop my monthly contributions to your campaign. Yes, the invasion was illegal and wrong but the true cause was the US refusal to consider Russia's legitimate security issues. We are supporting US militarism not the people of Ukraine. Let's get this behind us and begin waging peace. Neither the World or the US can afford where we are now.
do not let perfection be the enemy of the good? the good being a war criminal getting what he wants? ukrainians do not want to become a colony of russia again. they have been forced into that many times in their history and do not want it again. you on the other hand living in the US where you can say anything are very generous with the ukrainians' country. eh don't worry about perfection. just go along to get along. just remember life isn't fair and you'll be fine.
I hope I understand Ukraine's unfortunate position, just as I hope I understand Cubans (and Latin Americans in general) who have been pillaged and persecuted because of their geographical misfortune. Putin has been clear. Do we want total war, or will we acknowledge his interests. Given a choice between nuclear conflict (end of civilization) or a neutralized Ukraine, I choose neutralized Ukraine.
Yup, another dark story, whereby the U.S. benefits from having an ally in the midst of the Middle East--sort of like a military/diplomacy headquarters! Ugh.
And we shouldn’t. After living in the West Bank, I can say with confidence that Israel learned a lot from the Russian Jews who immigrated there after the Germans and other Europeans had set up their government. Russians have supported increasingly cruel and violent policies in the Occupied Territories.
I wholeheartedly support your campaign and truly believe you are our only chance to live in a true democracy. I have never seen a more omprehensive policy platform with such details for action! I do believe humanitarian aid should be given to Ukraine now and in the future. You mention our role in provoking Russia but don't mention our government has been planning this intervention for over 30 years. We planned, organized and funded the coup in 2014. In fact, we hear Victoria Nuland name the next president WE chose for Ukraine. I'm relieved that you are addressing the horrible abuses of the MIC, I just feel that these facts need to be held in the light so Americans understand the outright tyranny we have committed not in the name of democracy but rather hegemonic gains. We blew up Nordstream and are now selling OUR liquid gas to Germany! You go girl! (Independent boomer who switched to D to vote for Bernie in the primary. I'm staying only for you.)
you may think that the US has been planning this for 30 years. but i imagine you are not aware of the fact that russia has been colonizing ukraine for centuries. for the most part succeeding. but ukrainians again and again try to free themselves from their vicious grabby neighbor. 30 years is nothing in comparison.
Stop believing everything you read on Grayzone. You fail to recognize the will of the Ukrainian people, who started the 2014 revolution in September of 2013, and I marched along with them (I’m US-born but my mother was Belarusian & that country got smashed down hard when the “wrong” candidate beat Lukashenko and had to go into exile).
The imperialist ambitions of Russia under 24 years of Tsar Vladimir are far beyond anything you accuse of NATO.
Why do you think so many countries wanted to join the EU and NATO the moment they got the chance? Now Finland and Sweden. Do you think they were RECRUITED? Learn from the people who know better than you do. I certainly did, and reading Russian propaganda from so many Americans just makes me want to scream, and the people that know better are living in a state of fear and anger at gullible westerners who blame all the wrong people for the brutality of Russia.
Russia essentially hasn’t changed in over 200 years of conquest, and the countries they occupy are treated as slaves if they are lucky.
How do we know what the will of the Ukrainian people is? Do they want this war or would they prefer a cease fire and a negotiated settlement? Their voices will never be heard as long as we continue pouring weapons and money in to fuel the death and destruction. Zelensky is not the voice of the people. Certainly not those in Eastern Ukraine and Donbas. Zelensky has his own agenda for fame and fortune as he partners up with Exxon and Halliburton.
Is it possible that western propaganda has greatly contributed to Ukrainian belief that “fighting” is the only solution? Are they aware that they are fodder for US imperialist goals and that we have actively planned for and facilitated this war to that aim? Peace is being thwarted by the US grasping to maintain the petro-dollar dominance that we promised we would never abuse. Marianne has given us a glimpse of what a more peaceful, world alliance could bring. I have 💯 faith that given the opportunity, she will steer us in a direction in which we can truly and proudly say we stand for democracy for all.
you are saying they are fodder, that is they have no minds of their own and like zombies will do what the US tells them. they think they are humans who see a war criminal invading and destroying their country. you of course cannot see a war criminal when he acts like a war criminal in broad daylight. you see US imperialism wherever you look. the ukrainians see help coming from the US (and other civilized countries)
I know the will of the Ukrainian people from plenty of public polling and the personal relationships I have with my Ukrainian friends of many years.
Any average person can learn by immersing themselves in learning from the media outlets who don’t have links to the Kremlin. Many are available in English. It’s not the same as living with them for extended periods of time, but anything is better than ignorance and the inability to allow them to have agency.
I recently read "The Greatest Evil Is War" by Chris Hedges... a most horrifying read, but very informative about the dark side of the country I live in. I recommend this book to anyone that thinks the United States is on the right side of conflicts we cause or subtly encourage, and then profit from.
To have peace in the world would be a miracle. I'm supporting Marianne (again) because I believe she's uniquely qualified to broker the miracle of a world vision focused on peace.
We’ve already given 75 BILLION to Ukraine just since January 2022. What’s the end game here? I have no idea about foreign policy but that sounds like an insane amount of money, in a short amount of time, to “help” another country out. Especially when we’re struggling in so many ways in our own country. I’m just not convinced this is the way…
Ukraine needs to be given what it’s been saying it needs for the last two years, when they first knew what Russia intended to do to them because it had gotten away with the first step in 2014.
Military equipment was requested then, but western countries dragged their feet and allowed Russia to entrench themselves in the occupied areas of Ukraine, making it harder to dislodge their occupiers who had laid millions of land mines and dug long, deep trenches throughout the farmland and woodland.
The sooner they are given what they need for a decisive victory, the less we need to worry about the stated goals of imperialist Russia.
If you listen to Kennedy’s speech when he announced he was running he talks about this in it. After his father was assassinated the family took a train and he talks about how healing it was to see the crowds coming out to wave and show support for them.
Lauren, thanks for the clarification. I did not hear his speech. I have a friend whose husband grew up next to the Kennedy's, and I am rather biased about their lives. Additionally, I have a close friend who died and knew the Kennedy men well--I cannot share what he said about them--very disturbing. So it goes...
I favor MW2024 since her plans are evolutionary and are needed both here and in many other parts of our world. People need to realize the status quo means "let them eat cake" while a MW Presidency would mean having a harmonious life, where one can thrive instead of just survive!
Marianne, I am grateful that you took the plunge to run again for president – we need your voice! But please, please, please don’t let the seeming demands of a candidacy advance you even one point on the wishy-washy scale.
For me your saying “no blank check,“ while failing to name, much less oppose, the Biden administration‘s blank-check policy, is a bit of a red flag. Especially when unaccompanied by any hint of the conditions under which you think the checks should stop coming.
IMHO it reads as a minor instance of the professional politician’s understandable desire to please as many as possible, and alienate as few as possible.
(Why do I call the Administration’s policy a blank-check one? Because of their [dishonest] insistence that only the Ukrainian leadership can decide whether and when to negotiate, and that we will continue to support them militarily as long as there is a war. Why “dishonest”? Because of their activity to interrupt peace negotiations early in the war, activity which you acknowledge in another comment.)
So I appreciate your speaking out on a highly controversial issue among your supporters, though, as I have stated elsewhere here, I disagree. I only mention the wishy-washy pressures attending the position you are in, in a loving and supportive attempt to help you stay honest. I knew I needed that from my supporters when I ran for office. ❤️
You disagree from a position of ignorance on Russia and Ukraine.
24 years of Putin has been more than enough to inform me of what will happen if Russia is not dealt a definitive defeat. The United States has slow-walked so much that they have prolonged the war already, allowing Russia to entrench and lay millions of mines.
But why, oh why, do we seem to have endless money to send Ukraine (in addition to having rallied global support for Ukraine) while the basic needs of millions of Americans for food, housing, healthcare, education, etc. go unmet?
when you got nothing else, fall back on the '"Russian bot" Russian asset" "paid troll' or "Putin Lover" idiocy. I see you got nothing. Why not join The Fellas ?
While a negotiated settlement will, as you say, become possible only in response to developments that have not yet occurred on the battlefield, the broad outlines of such a settlement can be traced: Russian acceptance of a rump Ukraine’s membership in NATO, and the stationing of NATO forces on Ukraine’s soil to preserve peace, and, in return territorial concessions in Crimea and perhaps in the east. Such a compromise would be bitterly opposed by many on all sides but would provide a path out of the horror of a horrific war and put an end to Putin’s genocidal aggression. Those who want “more” than this are pursuing risks that no one should take in the interest of “regime change” in Russia or somehow “teaching” an aggressor a “lesson.” The same aggressive mentality, on our part, that led to such terrible outcomes as those in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. Standing up for a genuine negotiated settlement means that all sides both gain and lose. But what is gained in peace far outweighs what is lost in the “could have beens” associated with ongoing or escalating war.
Indeed, your right Steven Schwartzberg. Also, I think the U.S. support of Ukraine got out-of-hand, whereby we ended up being a proxy player. But again, the military industrial complex benefits from extended conflict despite death/carnage. What a planet! People need to upgrade their thinking about what's acceptable as human beings.
Any appeasement to Putin will do the exact opposite of what you say. He is NOT a normal human and I am saddened and angered that so many people fail to listen and learn from history and from the countries he and his predecessor Stalin occupied and enslaved.
I believe we should be concerned about Russia delivering a final brutal blow to Ukraine from a humanitarian standpoint but whether UKraine exist as a separate natioin, is not our business in my view, certainly beyond our participating in negotiation. You may not be saying anything different.
yes, when a much smaller country is invaded by a much bigger country that has nuclear weapons the two countries should sit down and negotiate. i think also when a rapist is attacking the rape victim those two should sit down and come to a negotiated solution.
And, upon editing my reply above, a mentor of mine just tweeted this quote.
“The last of the human freedoms: to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you become the plaything to circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity...”—Victor Frankl
It’s definitely our business as his goals are beyond Europe and now include Alaska.
It’s also our business on a humanitarian basis due to Russia’s historical and current practice of rape, torture and murder along with destruction of civilian infrastructure.
Please learn more about Putin’s history and that of Russia over the last two centuries. It was my undergrad degree and I’ve spent a lot of time over there as well.
I wish I were paid. I’ll never have the time back from last night correcting disinformation.
What would be wrong with working in the State Department? I haven’t but I have friends who did.
I worked for Paul Wellstone and before that Martin Sabo. Wellstone better than Sabo but I’m to his left. He made a bad vote on DOMA that he never forgave himself for.
i would point out to you that if you disagreed with putin in russia you would be in prison now, most likely being poisoned by novichok. and yet you do not include putin's russia among the evil doers. instead you use a cute term like "the russia-ukraine matter." very clever to call a crimian genocidal invasion by russia the russia ukraine matter. a trump supporter no doubt
maryanne, i am pleasantly surprised to read your take on this disaster that putin has unleashed on ukraine. i would like to add just one thing. russia has been an empire with empire conquest mentality for at least 3 centuries. russia stretches across 11 time zones! it has been trying to russify or annihilate ukraine, those ukrainians who want to be ukrainians in a sovereign ukraine for centuries. so what the US did is important but not the deciding factor. and the countries that joined nato or asked for US missiles did so because they had a very dangerous history with russia. just like sweden and finland now. they feel they are living next to a really dangerous and vicious neighbor.
We are using the people of Ukraine as pawns and they are suffering because of this proxy war which we can and should stop now. It's that simple. We are moving towards world War for military industrial complex and if course energy companies. The Ukrainian leaders are as corrupt as the Russians. We can't wait for them to decide when the war ends, nor can we afford to bankrupt our country for this senseless battle.
Marianne Williamson
just now
Author
Look at the way the people of Ukraine are fighting this war. They’re fighting for the survival of their country, they are not fighting that way for the US state. In the name concern for them, it seems to me you are according them no agency of their own
The unnecessary & reckless provocations of the NATO West and, primordially, the US military-industrial-political complex on the longstanding Russia-Ukraine matter have led to this current predicament.
The US should — by all means — extend unlimited humanitarian assistance to those on the ground caught up in this senseless conflict; the absolutely real suffering & devastation is a direct consequence of its own evildoing, as much as it is Putin’s and Zelenskyy’s.
But to oblige or indulge the shameless propaganda for more military support — unless this support is to take precisely & exclusively the form of these very culpable provocateurs & propagandists deploying their very own selves to the front lines of this conflict — is to effectively offer sanction & assent to the perpetual, endless, forever wars that are this failing empire’s futile efforts at maintaining its last grips on its eroding dominance on the world stage.
Ukraine today; Taiwan tomorrow — where & when will it end?
for you this is a senseless conflict. for putin and those who know russian history this is not senseless at all. this is just more of what the russian empire has been doing for centuries. and putin very openly declared he wants to continue the russian world (empire). ukraine in their system is meant to be a colony. ukraine never existed and putin means to make sure it never does exist. you see empire mentality in the US but refuse to see the obvious in russia. of course to you ukraine's existence doesn't matter. but to ukrainians strangely enough it matters a lot. too subtle for many americans
Thank you for stating what should be obvious to anyone with a brain. Unfortunately most people here wholly support imperialism the moment it doesn’t come from the United States or Europe but an authoritarian regime. They are incapable of recognizing Ukrainian sovereignty since it doesn’t comply with Russian propaganda.
Marianne, with respect, you can see from our own and other countries’ histories that, With the tools of government and media (especially in a country that has banned the opposition parties and consolidated media under the government) it is not that hard to persuade a people to fight a war. Especially, of course, when invaded. Is it a matter of according them no agency, or of refusing to assume that they do not know how hard the United States worked to provoke Russia to invade?
https://medium.com/@michael_18575/the-u-s-just-got-what-it-wanted-in-ukraine-part-i-d2584d5bfd65
Personally, at this point, I do wonder how many more Ukrainians want to see more loved ones killed and maimed, children traumatized, and their infrastructure destroyed, in order to ensure that Ukrainian oligarchs, not Russian ones, rule their eastern provinces.
But how many Ukrainians have fled their homeland? Whose left to fight but hired help! Sadly, lots of mercenaries on both sides getting higher paychecks than sovereign soldiers. History will, hopefully, show who was truly involved in this nightmare drama from several perspectives.
ukrainians are doing the fighting. what mercenaries have you seen?
My source came from West Point. You can google yourself to understand what's happening with the fighters on both side of this mess.
Then West Point needs to get their asses to the Ukrainian front and stop lying. I know better so they should as well.
samantha, how did you get to this conversation so many months later. too bad you weren't here earlier.
I agree that we seem to have endless money to send Ukraine (in addition to having rallied global support for Ukraine) while the basic needs of millions of Americans for food, housing, healthcare, education, etc. go unmet.
yes, the people of ukraine are pawns, only the US and russia have agency. is that your position? that is certainly putin's position when he is not saying that ukrainians are evil nazis. it is very disappointing that some on the left think that the only evil on this planet is the US. they see the destruction that putin is perpetrating and still blame the US for it. amazing brain gymnastics
If we are talking about agency of the Ukrainian people & the goodness/evilness of the US, then let’s not overlook the overthrow of a Ukrainian government democratically elected by the Ukrainian people, whose removal was facilitated & enabled by the US government to install its own preferred puppet/proxy regime in Kyiv.
If it wasn’t for the US-backed coup/revolution/“whatever” that overthrew a government democratically elected by the people of Ukraine, neither we nor the Ukrainians nor the Russians would be in the predicament we find ourselves today; in light of that FACT, why should we continue to heed the propaganda of these very same Western oligarchs (your words) about how we ought to resolve the present conflict?
lance, ukrainians think that they got rid of a government that promised them a turn toward the EU and that government instead got into a closer relationship with russia that the people did not want. so the ukrainian people got rid of this government that they once voted for (how clean that election was is not clear by the way, although you would rather turn somersaults than question the honesty of that election.)
It wasn’t a freaking coup, and if you had anything in your head besides Kremlin talking points, you’d know more about the revolution that started in 2013. Go to Ukraine and find out the truth.
Putin/Russia have been in Ukraine since 2014! Obama explicitly warned against the folly of intervening & sat out doing so through the end of his administration; Trump took virtually the same position and had his entire campaign & subsequent presidency sabotaged by the Russiagate hoax perpetrated by the mainstream media and their overlords in the military-industrial-political complex. It is unmistakable how quickly the Ukraine conflict escalated & how closely that escalation correlated with those obstinate figures falling out of the picture.
The US is not the only evil on the planet — I’ll give you that — but it ranks roundly as among its chief evildoers, up to & including on the Russia-Ukraine matter, in its gamesmanship, subterfuge, and backchannel maneuverings in the global geopolitical realm, deploying Ukraine as pawn & proxy to its imperial designs to advance the rapacious interests & aims of American power & capital.
You’ve been bent over so far backwards by the US establishment narrative you fail to comprehend the mental gymnastics under which your own brain is all tied up in knots.
You simply don’t know anything about Putin, and therefore shouldn’t be posting about him without that knowledge.
I'm pretty sure that you, yourself, no sweet FA about Mr Putin. Your emotional reactions in comments here are as shallow as a birdbath. Do you live in The Ukraine, or are you and Outrage Junkie from America ?
No sweet FA? WTF does that mean?
First, I have experience & knowledge of Russia & Ukraine (and other former republics) that goes back 40 years. My undergrad degree was in East European Studies, and I initially was dealing with the USSR. I combined my interest in horses & history by importing them from Russia, Ukraine & Latvia.
Over the years I made many friends and kept current on political developments.
I’ve spent a lot of time in both countries, so of course my responses are emotional when I see how thoroughly Kremlin propaganda has pervaded the conversation. Vladimir Putin wasn’t anywhere on my radar when I started, but the 2nd invasion of Ukraine has changed the landscape so much more than any previous actions, which I’ve already mentioned in other comments on this page.
You say my reactions are shallow because you’re either a stooge of the current Russian imperialist regime or you’re just spewing their talking points out of your hollow desire for relevance.
I don’t have a blog or substack. I do have scholarship and personal experience.
I really don’t give a shit about what you think of me. What I object to is massive ignorance of the figures who are presented here as authorities on Russia or Ukraine when all they do is parrot lies from the Kremlin which I’ve been seeing on Russian state TV for years.
I was in Ukraine in 2013 and am very familiar with the discontent of Ukrainians who, for the first time, decided they wanted to deal more with the EU than Russia but ultimately Russia wouldn’t allow the independence. This has been twisted into fiction of a US-backed “coup” rather than the revolution that it was.
Blaming NATO for the current Russian occupation is perhaps the most frustrating talking point because it ignores many factors. One being how desperately ex-USSR nations wanted to be members of the EU for trade and other reasons and NATO to protect themselves from an acquisitive Russian state. Another being the horrifying methods used by the Russian military first seen in the Chechen genocide and carried out in Georgia and Ukraine. Nothing excuses what is committed under the imperialist regime of Vladimir Putin (I will never call him Vladimir Vladimirovich).
There are so many lies about Crimea and Donetsk and Luhansk that there’s no way I can’t get upset when I see them on a site for my only possible candidate this presidential cycle. If you don’t understand that, you’re not human.
I agree
I wish I could agree because I support Marianne - but when does it end? You cannot simultaneously prepare for war and prevent it. It must end now. Love you but &pummm no more weapons
No more weapons, you say. But you think that stops the war? It just means the entire world will watch a nation and its people crushed in the most brutal and horrific way. There is nothing “pro-peace” about that.
More weapons and crickets from US on peacetalks? Peacetalks thwarted early in the war by our lackey Boris Johnson. F16's? No way!
I don’t deny that that happened. And so far they are not sending f-16s, just training. I do not disagree about things that happened before. The issue for me is determining what needs to be done now.
Marianne, I’ve been supporting you from the day you announced. I have 40 years of experience in Russia & Ukraine (& other republics) and I can almost hear Putin think. Ukraine is willing to fight but need air superiority. If Russia is not soundly defeated as Germany was in WWII, bloodshed will resume as soon as they have rebuilt their reserves.
Sorry about the violence it will require, but it pales in comparison to what Russia will do in the coming years to the next bordering countries. Once they occupy any area, they will use the resources to wage war on the next victim. This isn’t a secret to the Ukrainians or the Baltics. Their intelligence is now becoming public, and it’s openly acknowledged on Russian media every night.
ahhhh ... there you are, establishing cred.... so, a forty-year veteran of Russian imperialist evildoing, eh? Living in the actual area, or reading magazines on the sofa? Is the situation completely the fault of the mad Russian, Samantha... are there any mitigating circumstances ? does any other country (I have a list) share ANY of the guilt for this disaster? Anyone at all.... or is it ENTIRELY the fault of the mad dictator in The Kremlin. Come on, show us your ideological obesssion, please...
Read your post for a check on which one of us sounds credible and sane.
I was sure you were aware. We’ve got to get you on the debate stage!!! The winner of the 2024 election will probably be my last president. I really, really want it to be you!❤️
We should have believed Putin when he told us in early 2022 exactly what he was about to do. That is when we should have done everything possible to prevent it.
I'm not sure what we would have done that wouldn't have been some form of appeasement. But sometimes that is the proper course of action when you are unsure of what side to support or are unable and unwilling to enter the arena yourself (NATO/US in this case), or simply want to buy time.
My God, woman, you are SO naive ....
Why are you in this discourse if you think Marianne is naive? She’s walking a precarious line, a LIFELINE, the best we could possibly hope for. Because I have concerns/disagreements on this particular issue, does not negate the fact that the other 99.9% of her policy platform (the most substantial, detailed platform I’ve seen) is 💯 what we are desperate for. Wake up! We’re circling the drain and Marianne is Eloise. (I’m a boomer. You may not get the reference.)
please amplify your comment Mario, what do you mean when you say, "The siutaion is far and away the same."?
Mario, thanks! I thought that may have been your intent, and I agree with it. I have misgivings on even how and why Zelensky seized power as president. There's still so much we don't know about the country that's been known as wildly corrupt in governance, economics, etc. that hasn't been helpful for the ordinary, every day Ukrainian. Let's hope things get better for them!
zelensky "seized" power by being elected. but if one is biased enough then what ukrainians do will always be suspect. even seeing putin's daily atrocities some walk by not noticing and look to solve the mystery of how zelensky "seized" power
I have 40 years of experience in both countries as I first visited during the days of the USSR. My avatar even has one of my imported horses from Ryazan.
Anyway, Ukraine has made immense progress shaking off old Soviet-style corruption with two major changes in 2005 & 2014 and continues to clean up each week.
Zelenskyy wasn’t taken seriously until he became so public and has been instrumental in improving leadership and procuring or at least making public what Ukraine needs to actually win this war.
Meanwhile I’ve had to help several friends with visas so they could leave Russia due to its growing intolerance and absolute brutality. Unfortunately many are unable to leave due to funds or having family who would suffer. I myself can no longer travel there safely and can only help my friends in Ukraine with whatever they cannot get when they are IDPs.
Marianne is correct, except she doesn’t support us sending F-16s which has already prolonged the war.
The munitions they sent are not the old bomblet style.
They have 170,000 steel balls and are highly effective on enemy troops who are entrenched beyond their mine fields.
Sorry to say, if you continue to support the war, I will have to stop my monthly contributions to your campaign. Yes, the invasion was illegal and wrong but the true cause was the US refusal to consider Russia's legitimate security issues. We are supporting US militarism not the people of Ukraine. Let's get this behind us and begin waging peace. Neither the World or the US can afford where we are now.
russia has legitimate security issues but ukraine does not have a legitimate right to exist? why is that? please explain.
Life is not fair. Consider Monroe Doctrine. Consider NATO expansion. Consider Cuban missile crisis. Do not let perfection be the enemy of the good.
do not let perfection be the enemy of the good? the good being a war criminal getting what he wants? ukrainians do not want to become a colony of russia again. they have been forced into that many times in their history and do not want it again. you on the other hand living in the US where you can say anything are very generous with the ukrainians' country. eh don't worry about perfection. just go along to get along. just remember life isn't fair and you'll be fine.
very nice.
I hope I understand Ukraine's unfortunate position, just as I hope I understand Cubans (and Latin Americans in general) who have been pillaged and persecuted because of their geographical misfortune. Putin has been clear. Do we want total war, or will we acknowledge his interests. Given a choice between nuclear conflict (end of civilization) or a neutralized Ukraine, I choose neutralized Ukraine.
Russia has pulled the nuclear card numerous times over the last 20 years!
That’s how they get to continue to rape, torture and murder innocent civilians by the hundreds of thousands totaled up from the Chechen genocide.
Look at what happened in the negotiated humanitarian corridors for instance. That’s what your ignorance supports.
Russian imperialism is the worst I’ve seen personally, and I spent time in Syria and Hebron.
Stop your obvious support for Russian imperialism, you ignorant fool.
My god you people are insufferable. Just admit you hate Ukraine and move to Russia as soon as possible.
You clearly don’t know anything about Russia or Ukraine! It would be like me pretending to know everything about Indonesia!
Sadly, Len, there are too many unknown forces keeping these war engagements on the stage to gain for their own coffers!
Unknown by you doesn’t mean unknown to all.
What about Israel? It is an apartheid state that the USA supports.
Yup, another dark story, whereby the U.S. benefits from having an ally in the midst of the Middle East--sort of like a military/diplomacy headquarters! Ugh.
And we shouldn’t. After living in the West Bank, I can say with confidence that Israel learned a lot from the Russian Jews who immigrated there after the Germans and other Europeans had set up their government. Russians have supported increasingly cruel and violent policies in the Occupied Territories.
I wholeheartedly support your campaign and truly believe you are our only chance to live in a true democracy. I have never seen a more omprehensive policy platform with such details for action! I do believe humanitarian aid should be given to Ukraine now and in the future. You mention our role in provoking Russia but don't mention our government has been planning this intervention for over 30 years. We planned, organized and funded the coup in 2014. In fact, we hear Victoria Nuland name the next president WE chose for Ukraine. I'm relieved that you are addressing the horrible abuses of the MIC, I just feel that these facts need to be held in the light so Americans understand the outright tyranny we have committed not in the name of democracy but rather hegemonic gains. We blew up Nordstream and are now selling OUR liquid gas to Germany! You go girl! (Independent boomer who switched to D to vote for Bernie in the primary. I'm staying only for you.)
you may think that the US has been planning this for 30 years. but i imagine you are not aware of the fact that russia has been colonizing ukraine for centuries. for the most part succeeding. but ukrainians again and again try to free themselves from their vicious grabby neighbor. 30 years is nothing in comparison.
Stop believing everything you read on Grayzone. You fail to recognize the will of the Ukrainian people, who started the 2014 revolution in September of 2013, and I marched along with them (I’m US-born but my mother was Belarusian & that country got smashed down hard when the “wrong” candidate beat Lukashenko and had to go into exile).
The imperialist ambitions of Russia under 24 years of Tsar Vladimir are far beyond anything you accuse of NATO.
Why do you think so many countries wanted to join the EU and NATO the moment they got the chance? Now Finland and Sweden. Do you think they were RECRUITED? Learn from the people who know better than you do. I certainly did, and reading Russian propaganda from so many Americans just makes me want to scream, and the people that know better are living in a state of fear and anger at gullible westerners who blame all the wrong people for the brutality of Russia.
Russia essentially hasn’t changed in over 200 years of conquest, and the countries they occupy are treated as slaves if they are lucky.
How do we know what the will of the Ukrainian people is? Do they want this war or would they prefer a cease fire and a negotiated settlement? Their voices will never be heard as long as we continue pouring weapons and money in to fuel the death and destruction. Zelensky is not the voice of the people. Certainly not those in Eastern Ukraine and Donbas. Zelensky has his own agenda for fame and fortune as he partners up with Exxon and Halliburton.
"I could see peace instead of this."
polls say they want to keep fighting for the continued existence of their country.
Is it possible that western propaganda has greatly contributed to Ukrainian belief that “fighting” is the only solution? Are they aware that they are fodder for US imperialist goals and that we have actively planned for and facilitated this war to that aim? Peace is being thwarted by the US grasping to maintain the petro-dollar dominance that we promised we would never abuse. Marianne has given us a glimpse of what a more peaceful, world alliance could bring. I have 💯 faith that given the opportunity, she will steer us in a direction in which we can truly and proudly say we stand for democracy for all.
you are saying they are fodder, that is they have no minds of their own and like zombies will do what the US tells them. they think they are humans who see a war criminal invading and destroying their country. you of course cannot see a war criminal when he acts like a war criminal in broad daylight. you see US imperialism wherever you look. the ukrainians see help coming from the US (and other civilized countries)
I know the will of the Ukrainian people from plenty of public polling and the personal relationships I have with my Ukrainian friends of many years.
Any average person can learn by immersing themselves in learning from the media outlets who don’t have links to the Kremlin. Many are available in English. It’s not the same as living with them for extended periods of time, but anything is better than ignorance and the inability to allow them to have agency.
I recently read "The Greatest Evil Is War" by Chris Hedges... a most horrifying read, but very informative about the dark side of the country I live in. I recommend this book to anyone that thinks the United States is on the right side of conflicts we cause or subtly encourage, and then profit from.
To have peace in the world would be a miracle. I'm supporting Marianne (again) because I believe she's uniquely qualified to broker the miracle of a world vision focused on peace.
Richard, I so pray your right about the prospects for Marianne--the world needs a shift to a moral compass and true ethics!
We’ve already given 75 BILLION to Ukraine just since January 2022. What’s the end game here? I have no idea about foreign policy but that sounds like an insane amount of money, in a short amount of time, to “help” another country out. Especially when we’re struggling in so many ways in our own country. I’m just not convinced this is the way…
Ukraine needs to be given what it’s been saying it needs for the last two years, when they first knew what Russia intended to do to them because it had gotten away with the first step in 2014.
Military equipment was requested then, but western countries dragged their feet and allowed Russia to entrench themselves in the occupied areas of Ukraine, making it harder to dislodge their occupiers who had laid millions of land mines and dug long, deep trenches throughout the farmland and woodland.
The sooner they are given what they need for a decisive victory, the less we need to worry about the stated goals of imperialist Russia.
I Love Marianne, and she has been a North Star to me for 35 years: the majority of my life. Like a sister spiritual.
We should care and support the Ukrainians all we can. How to do so, is the genius part, and I am not a genius.
Marianne is a spiritual genius.
We have to End The War, and if our leaders were had moral courage and moral intelligence, they would 12 Step it: admit our wrongs and make Amends.
We, as a nation, are not healthy enough to do that.
We lack the capacity.
Our help right now is contaminated with our character defects, and they are inseparable. Only Marianne and RFK Jr. would I trust.
We must end this, and we could, IMMEDIATELY I believe. But only honestly, and spiritually. We are not up to this task. I am sorry.
You can't get out of a situation sometimes using the same Dark Side(s)/ parts that got you I.
Marianne, I Love you, and am rooting all the way for you and Robert (He waved to me from the train in 1968)
Are you confusing the current Kennedy to Robert F. Kennedy from 1968--actually, the year he was killed? Just wondered.
If you listen to Kennedy’s speech when he announced he was running he talks about this in it. After his father was assassinated the family took a train and he talks about how healing it was to see the crowds coming out to wave and show support for them.
Lauren, thanks for the clarification. I did not hear his speech. I have a friend whose husband grew up next to the Kennedy's, and I am rather biased about their lives. Additionally, I have a close friend who died and knew the Kennedy men well--I cannot share what he said about them--very disturbing. So it goes...
I favor MW2024 since her plans are evolutionary and are needed both here and in many other parts of our world. People need to realize the status quo means "let them eat cake" while a MW Presidency would mean having a harmonious life, where one can thrive instead of just survive!
RFK Jr is running to be Trump’s running mate. How dare you compare him to his father.
Marianne, I am grateful that you took the plunge to run again for president – we need your voice! But please, please, please don’t let the seeming demands of a candidacy advance you even one point on the wishy-washy scale.
For me your saying “no blank check,“ while failing to name, much less oppose, the Biden administration‘s blank-check policy, is a bit of a red flag. Especially when unaccompanied by any hint of the conditions under which you think the checks should stop coming.
IMHO it reads as a minor instance of the professional politician’s understandable desire to please as many as possible, and alienate as few as possible.
(Why do I call the Administration’s policy a blank-check one? Because of their [dishonest] insistence that only the Ukrainian leadership can decide whether and when to negotiate, and that we will continue to support them militarily as long as there is a war. Why “dishonest”? Because of their activity to interrupt peace negotiations early in the war, activity which you acknowledge in another comment.)
So I appreciate your speaking out on a highly controversial issue among your supporters, though, as I have stated elsewhere here, I disagree. I only mention the wishy-washy pressures attending the position you are in, in a loving and supportive attempt to help you stay honest. I knew I needed that from my supporters when I ran for office. ❤️
You disagree from a position of ignorance on Russia and Ukraine.
24 years of Putin has been more than enough to inform me of what will happen if Russia is not dealt a definitive defeat. The United States has slow-walked so much that they have prolonged the war already, allowing Russia to entrench and lay millions of mines.
But why, oh why, do we seem to have endless money to send Ukraine (in addition to having rallied global support for Ukraine) while the basic needs of millions of Americans for food, housing, healthcare, education, etc. go unmet?
You’ve already outed yourself to be a Kremlin asset. Go on to your next assignment.
when you got nothing else, fall back on the '"Russian bot" Russian asset" "paid troll' or "Putin Lover" idiocy. I see you got nothing. Why not join The Fellas ?
I love the fellas. Also Saint Javelin and Frontline Kitchen.
While a negotiated settlement will, as you say, become possible only in response to developments that have not yet occurred on the battlefield, the broad outlines of such a settlement can be traced: Russian acceptance of a rump Ukraine’s membership in NATO, and the stationing of NATO forces on Ukraine’s soil to preserve peace, and, in return territorial concessions in Crimea and perhaps in the east. Such a compromise would be bitterly opposed by many on all sides but would provide a path out of the horror of a horrific war and put an end to Putin’s genocidal aggression. Those who want “more” than this are pursuing risks that no one should take in the interest of “regime change” in Russia or somehow “teaching” an aggressor a “lesson.” The same aggressive mentality, on our part, that led to such terrible outcomes as those in Iraq, Afghanistan, and Libya. Standing up for a genuine negotiated settlement means that all sides both gain and lose. But what is gained in peace far outweighs what is lost in the “could have beens” associated with ongoing or escalating war.
Indeed, your right Steven Schwartzberg. Also, I think the U.S. support of Ukraine got out-of-hand, whereby we ended up being a proxy player. But again, the military industrial complex benefits from extended conflict despite death/carnage. What a planet! People need to upgrade their thinking about what's acceptable as human beings.
Any appeasement to Putin will do the exact opposite of what you say. He is NOT a normal human and I am saddened and angered that so many people fail to listen and learn from history and from the countries he and his predecessor Stalin occupied and enslaved.
you know what, Samantha, we would all be a lot better off now if Germany had won WW2 - I'm sure you agree
Have you ever heard of a little something called the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact?
I didn’t think so. Look it up.
I believe we should be concerned about Russia delivering a final brutal blow to Ukraine from a humanitarian standpoint but whether UKraine exist as a separate natioin, is not our business in my view, certainly beyond our participating in negotiation. You may not be saying anything different.
Yup, Oscar, I agree with you. It's up to those countries to work sort out their issues. We need to police our own governance at home that's lacking!
yes, when a much smaller country is invaded by a much bigger country that has nuclear weapons the two countries should sit down and negotiate. i think also when a rapist is attacking the rape victim those two should sit down and come to a negotiated solution.
Exactly! It’s maddening to read these comments with so much ignorance and false equivalency. Your analogy is spot on.
I appreciate the point I believe you are making. It illustrates the dilemma humanity has in choosing what is right and wrong.
And, upon editing my reply above, a mentor of mine just tweeted this quote.
“The last of the human freedoms: to choose one's attitude in any given set of circumstances, to choose one's own way. And there were always choices to make. Every day, every hour, offered the opportunity to make a decision, a decision which determined whether you would or would not submit to those powers which threatened to rob you of your very self, your inner freedom; which determined whether or not you become the plaything to circumstance, renouncing freedom and dignity...”—Victor Frankl
It’s definitely our business as his goals are beyond Europe and now include Alaska.
It’s also our business on a humanitarian basis due to Russia’s historical and current practice of rape, torture and murder along with destruction of civilian infrastructure.
Please learn more about Putin’s history and that of Russia over the last two centuries. It was my undergrad degree and I’ve spent a lot of time over there as well.
you are clearly a US State department 'asset'.... you have a massive volume here, so I guess its 'paid by the word'?
I wish I were paid. I’ll never have the time back from last night correcting disinformation.
What would be wrong with working in the State Department? I haven’t but I have friends who did.
I worked for Paul Wellstone and before that Martin Sabo. Wellstone better than Sabo but I’m to his left. He made a bad vote on DOMA that he never forgave himself for.
i would point out to you that if you disagreed with putin in russia you would be in prison now, most likely being poisoned by novichok. and yet you do not include putin's russia among the evil doers. instead you use a cute term like "the russia-ukraine matter." very clever to call a crimian genocidal invasion by russia the russia ukraine matter. a trump supporter no doubt
I don’t know what the answer is but I do know that the annihilation of the Ukrainian people and their country by Russia cannot be.
maryanne, i am pleasantly surprised to read your take on this disaster that putin has unleashed on ukraine. i would like to add just one thing. russia has been an empire with empire conquest mentality for at least 3 centuries. russia stretches across 11 time zones! it has been trying to russify or annihilate ukraine, those ukrainians who want to be ukrainians in a sovereign ukraine for centuries. so what the US did is important but not the deciding factor. and the countries that joined nato or asked for US missiles did so because they had a very dangerous history with russia. just like sweden and finland now. they feel they are living next to a really dangerous and vicious neighbor.